I have no idea of what did or did not happen. I can only say that as a player from another clan, and a returning player after 4 years, I have found Astaroth to be nothing but helpful to me.
I think back to the very early days when big players would go around morting/torsoing other players. No doubt, at the time it was hugely annoying, but it always gave me something to drive for (i.e. being in town for an escape, or simply just growing bigger to return the favour).
Does banning mean deletion, or simply a timeout? If deletion, I would think it might be somewhat drastic.
Taipan
RE: Astaroth
Re: RE: Astaroth
Its a ban. I won't take abuse from players, spur of the moment anger I can make allowances for but this was just not on.
Re: RE: Astaroth
I have a few thoughts on this topic.
First, on Astaroth's actions: from what I understand, he morted a clannie and engaged in some verbal sparring that included "selective remembering". I don't see how this situation could even possibly constitute "driving a player away from the mud". Anyone who has spent more than a couple months playing this game has experienced far worse - it IS a pk mud, and traditionally fairly vicious. The mort might have been unnecessary, but there were several ways the situation could have been resolved without Sigyn quitting, such as switching clans or appropriate justicar involvement. In my opinion, the current rules (five minute torso limit, vagabond and rogue exemption from clan wars, etc.) were put in place to prevent "driving players away", and if not ONE of those rules are broken, the blame for a player quitting shouldn't be laid on the aggressor. Seriously, there wasn't even enough time to evoke any "extended verbal harrassment" claim.
Second, on admin intervention: at what point is this issue your responsibility? It's been communicated throughout the years that admin punish major rule violations, and clans handle everything else. If this is the case, either a. Astaroth DID drive away a player in an inappropriate way so admin should have handled the issue from the get-go, or b. it was a minor problem, one player overreacted and quit, the other was punished (or not) depending on the justicar's judgment, and admin shouldn't have intervened.
I don't believe doctored logs make any difference in this situation. Everyone here knows Astaroth - some players like him, others don't. I'm not a big fan, myself. He's always had a tendency to filter or exxaggerate his roles in past events. It's his word against that of another player, and both players have the same capability of representing themselves. If you really think a justicar is going to use a crappy log of "he said she said" posted by a known fabricator as the main piece of evidence in a circumstance like this, you have a bigger problem than a lying player - you have a stupid justicar who needs to be replaced.
Finally, the whole scenario reeks of partiality and unnecessary self-aggrandizement. It seems clear from your posts that Astaroth WOULD be punished for the situation, regardless of his clan leader's verdict and punishment. This belies the integrity of the clan system - if you're going to be passing judgment, don't maintain the facade that players have any say in the matter. It's unnecessary and frankly insulting. Your repetition of the "we own the game, we put all the work into it, we make all the final decisions" cliche doesn't apply when you fail to treat players with the courtesy and respect we deserve as people who are choosing to spend OUR free time playing YOUR game. We know you're the judge and jury, but this actually isn't a courtroom - we can leave freely if the process seems unfair.
Furthermore, a number of the comments you made in your "rumor control" post or in response to Mental's angry rant were inconsequential, biased, or downright wrong.
Along the same vein, I'd think neglecting the mud for three years would preclude you from condemning an active player's contributions to the game.
And one more time, for emphasis:
First, on Astaroth's actions: from what I understand, he morted a clannie and engaged in some verbal sparring that included "selective remembering". I don't see how this situation could even possibly constitute "driving a player away from the mud". Anyone who has spent more than a couple months playing this game has experienced far worse - it IS a pk mud, and traditionally fairly vicious. The mort might have been unnecessary, but there were several ways the situation could have been resolved without Sigyn quitting, such as switching clans or appropriate justicar involvement. In my opinion, the current rules (five minute torso limit, vagabond and rogue exemption from clan wars, etc.) were put in place to prevent "driving players away", and if not ONE of those rules are broken, the blame for a player quitting shouldn't be laid on the aggressor. Seriously, there wasn't even enough time to evoke any "extended verbal harrassment" claim.
Second, on admin intervention: at what point is this issue your responsibility? It's been communicated throughout the years that admin punish major rule violations, and clans handle everything else. If this is the case, either a. Astaroth DID drive away a player in an inappropriate way so admin should have handled the issue from the get-go, or b. it was a minor problem, one player overreacted and quit, the other was punished (or not) depending on the justicar's judgment, and admin shouldn't have intervened.
I don't believe doctored logs make any difference in this situation. Everyone here knows Astaroth - some players like him, others don't. I'm not a big fan, myself. He's always had a tendency to filter or exxaggerate his roles in past events. It's his word against that of another player, and both players have the same capability of representing themselves. If you really think a justicar is going to use a crappy log of "he said she said" posted by a known fabricator as the main piece of evidence in a circumstance like this, you have a bigger problem than a lying player - you have a stupid justicar who needs to be replaced.
Finally, the whole scenario reeks of partiality and unnecessary self-aggrandizement. It seems clear from your posts that Astaroth WOULD be punished for the situation, regardless of his clan leader's verdict and punishment. This belies the integrity of the clan system - if you're going to be passing judgment, don't maintain the facade that players have any say in the matter. It's unnecessary and frankly insulting. Your repetition of the "we own the game, we put all the work into it, we make all the final decisions" cliche doesn't apply when you fail to treat players with the courtesy and respect we deserve as people who are choosing to spend OUR free time playing YOUR game. We know you're the judge and jury, but this actually isn't a courtroom - we can leave freely if the process seems unfair.
Furthermore, a number of the comments you made in your "rumor control" post or in response to Mental's angry rant were inconsequential, biased, or downright wrong.
ember wrote:As for Ast contributing to game, he has never contributed anything to game, no areas, no useable code ideas, nothing. Obviously he has told you differently, which areas did he claim to build? This should be good for a laugh for everyone.
If you're curious, I HAVE been on in the past three years, and as much as I dislike Astaroth's lying and occasional attitudes, he has contributed a tremendous amount to the game. He has equipped and trained countless newbies, participated in runs and quests, and (I would say) on average improved the game's environment. Mentioning areas or useable code ideas is absolutely ludicrous. The concept of contributing an area to this mud over the past few years is a joke - you do realize that for most of that stretch, there were NO active administrators, and even those who were around at points were so swamped that they wouldn't have even had time to consider a player-built area. Several idea threads on the forums were born, grew to thirty or forty posts, then were erased due to inactivity during this time, never with ONE comment from an administrator, likely never seen by an administrator. Astaroth could easily have made several great suggestions, but you'd never know, would you?ember wrote:Just to address comment about nothing being done in last 3 years, I haven't been on in 3 years
Along the same vein, I'd think neglecting the mud for three years would preclude you from condemning an active player's contributions to the game.
ember wrote:Who could ban the admin, WE OWN THE GAME. Can that sink into your head, we provide a server, we have written code, we have built areas, as have some players(those players still own their areas and can reuse them elsewhere to their hearts content). You pay nothing for it, just because we invite people in, does not mean you should think you own the place. Do you go too parties and crap on the carpet? Well I hope not, we invite all to the mud party, but try and not leave crumbs on the floor or insult us please or we will have to eject you.
Being an administrator is not supposed to be "fun" in the same way being a player is "fun". Administrators have a responsibility to be patient, act impartially, and communicate effectively. Dealing with problem players is not "fun", but it shouldn't be avoided or quickly resolved by breaking out the ban-stick without first attempting other methods of conflict resolution. Taking the easy way out sets a terrible precedent for a mud and can ruin its reputation among players. Why would anyone play a game where miscommunication and a temporary temper tantrum can lead to a permanent ban? Just as coders and builders work hard to improve a mud, enforcement administrators must do the same.ember wrote:Game is supposed to be fun for you and also for us.
And one more time, for emphasis:
There are many players who have invested significant time and effort in attempts to help expand and improve Classic, only to be thwarted by the impenetrable barrier that is the bureaucracy maintained by the old, inactive, disinterested administrative body of the mud. To suggest that nothing has been accomplished here because "You haven't been on in three years" is a ******* slap in the face.ember wrote:Just to address comment about nothing being done in last 3 years, I haven't been on in 3 years
Re: RE: Astaroth
well guys i think this a little over reaction. basically as i read it if astaroth had of come back after ban and gone look i made a bad call, it would be a short term ban. i agree that admin need to have level headed approach but your forgetting that all the original admin of muds were fuick heads and that ember was actually one the nicest ones. so taken in context why screw with the admin when you know that the older they are the more hard core they are. ive been frozen banned deleted from lots of muds, but hey that was in the days when plenty of people played so losing one person meant nothing. in this day and age losing 2 players means a lot and im pretty sure ember knows this. still doesnt change that you have to own your crime and do the time. sonja was set to 100 across for quite some time and she didnt quit. she got upcapped by her own clannies and hunted by virtually anyone online. the irony is she got the punishment she had been handing to her clannies and others people on the mud, been in fear every time others were logged. but she owned her crime and kept coming and she was restored. im guessing she would of swore a lot but i didnt hear any bitching about unfair admin even though she was getting fucked on. do something wrong and you own it and the admin will almost definitely give you a reprieve. think how many times samhein/secma/exulia had punishments and they kept coming back getting ganged and ****. they lost more than nod disciplines during their time.
Re: RE: Astaroth
I have been waiting for Astaroth for the last few days, was wondering why he hadn't come on.
I recently started playing again after a few years and as a Toreador I can say Astaroth has been awesome. Always helping me with eq and quest items and general tips. He really provided a helpful environment which encouraged me to keep coming back. I also noticed him help other players on the mud both Tors and other clans. I really hope the admin staff reconsider this ban.
As for Sigyn he could have just moved to another clan. No prob with him but if I had to choose I'd rather have Astaroth.
Zaheer
I recently started playing again after a few years and as a Toreador I can say Astaroth has been awesome. Always helping me with eq and quest items and general tips. He really provided a helpful environment which encouraged me to keep coming back. I also noticed him help other players on the mud both Tors and other clans. I really hope the admin staff reconsider this ban.
As for Sigyn he could have just moved to another clan. No prob with him but if I had to choose I'd rather have Astaroth.
Zaheer
Re: RE: Astaroth
Actually Ghnat better than that, if he had said bad call nothing would have had to be done.
He actually only has a short term ban. Its not permanent, its "a look you can play here, but you ahve to respect game, admin and other players rights too" type of lesson.
He wont be expected to crawl or anything when he comes back.
He actually only has a short term ban. Its not permanent, its "a look you can play here, but you ahve to respect game, admin and other players rights too" type of lesson.
He wont be expected to crawl or anything when he comes back.
Re: RE: Astaroth
Mase, I am not going to get into a flame war over this, because I just don't agree with 95% off what you said. I want to clarify a couple of points. More for others than for you.
I was not the one that said nothing had been done in 3 years. It was someone else, I was pointing out that not being here it was not something I could have done anything about that. I am not nullifying what was done by Valynn and others, I may be unhappy with some details, but some of the new areas are superb, and they did the best they could under circumstances. Its a pity that noone was here to help them, but thats life, we all obviously had other things to do that was more important. lets face it, this being a game, there is little that is less important.
You have obviously misread alot of what went before, *shrug*, up to you. Astaroth had already run player off, so saying clan jumping was an option it wasn't one I had. His ban was not for that, it was for admin abuse. We are not perfect, we do make mistakes, in this case I punished leniently and was abused for it. Maybe I should have gone straight to ban.
Should a player be allowed on a game where they abuse the organisers, would you be allowed into a party if you abused the person who was holding the party? If you go to a theme park and then don't obey safety rules you get kicked out. If you go to work and abuse your boss you will be sacked. I know in this country(UK) if you go to accident emergency and abuse the staff you won't get seen, and that could even put your life at risk, must more important than a game. If you abuse bus drivers you get thrown of bus. The list is endless.
Playing on ANY mud is not a right, the people who run it pay for machine, they develop the game, why should they get abused for trying to do the best they can? They can chose to do what they like essentially, VW has always tried to be fair, not always succeeding, should I have stood by and let a player post logs that were untrue, so he/she/it could go ahead driving the odd small player here and there away, even if they helped others? Again it was a lenient punishment, that could have been fixed in one playing session. It was only the nod quest that was lost, Sonja/Desades(yeah I know hes torrie too)/any big player could have done as much with a stake, except they wouldn't have done an instant rebite.
I don't expect players to like all my decisions, but I wont be abused for them on a game I have worked many, many long hours to improve. I dont expect praise or anything, but I wont be abused.
I was not the one that said nothing had been done in 3 years. It was someone else, I was pointing out that not being here it was not something I could have done anything about that. I am not nullifying what was done by Valynn and others, I may be unhappy with some details, but some of the new areas are superb, and they did the best they could under circumstances. Its a pity that noone was here to help them, but thats life, we all obviously had other things to do that was more important. lets face it, this being a game, there is little that is less important.
You have obviously misread alot of what went before, *shrug*, up to you. Astaroth had already run player off, so saying clan jumping was an option it wasn't one I had. His ban was not for that, it was for admin abuse. We are not perfect, we do make mistakes, in this case I punished leniently and was abused for it. Maybe I should have gone straight to ban.
Should a player be allowed on a game where they abuse the organisers, would you be allowed into a party if you abused the person who was holding the party? If you go to a theme park and then don't obey safety rules you get kicked out. If you go to work and abuse your boss you will be sacked. I know in this country(UK) if you go to accident emergency and abuse the staff you won't get seen, and that could even put your life at risk, must more important than a game. If you abuse bus drivers you get thrown of bus. The list is endless.
Playing on ANY mud is not a right, the people who run it pay for machine, they develop the game, why should they get abused for trying to do the best they can? They can chose to do what they like essentially, VW has always tried to be fair, not always succeeding, should I have stood by and let a player post logs that were untrue, so he/she/it could go ahead driving the odd small player here and there away, even if they helped others? Again it was a lenient punishment, that could have been fixed in one playing session. It was only the nod quest that was lost, Sonja/Desades(yeah I know hes torrie too)/any big player could have done as much with a stake, except they wouldn't have done an instant rebite.
I don't expect players to like all my decisions, but I wont be abused for them on a game I have worked many, many long hours to improve. I dont expect praise or anything, but I wont be abused.
Re: RE: Astaroth
I just want to say that through the years of helping out with this game, you have those that come just to stretch the rules to their favor as much as possible. Those people can really become problematic, and some times can be stressful to try and get under control. Then you have someone that just had the sheer of bad luck, or decided to flow curse words towards people that they should not have directed them towards. These situations can be as well be a bit difficult to deal with. Then when I decision comes into play to fix them, everyone else would like to put their two cents in where some times it just doesn't belong.
-Helmut
Re: RE: Astaroth
ok ember just a humorous side.... i went to visit my sister in manchester a few years back and this dude was really drunk and was abusing everyone on the bus including the bus driver. he didnt get thrown off and continued to abuse everyone. me being a typical smart assed aussie yelled 'up the millwall' (sensing that anyone who was this obnoxious was definitely a football fan and as such would have strong feelings about millwall). anyway i ended up spending my bus trip chatting to him and he didnt abuse anyone else for the time i saw him. so he didnt get thrown off the bus, but anyone at all can be quite interesting company if given the right stimulus. hopefully astaroth will find a short ban the 'right stimulus' to treat all with respect. and btw quite often when a player wants to go into torpor they start playing a lot then abuse someone then quit for ages. ive seen it many more times than i care to remember. the human psyche doesnt allow us to admit we want a break so we need a tangible reason to leave. over time the reason erodes in our minds and we come back. i also am a fellow victim of humandom
Re: RE: Astaroth
If you didn't keep the guy occupied, i'd bet you someone on that bus was about to kick his ***.
-Helmut
Re: RE: Astaroth
I just felt I had to say, I have probably been one of the biggest dicks on this mud. None the less, I still drop in. Most of the time to see who is on cause some havoc. Either way, for the most part after the initial "We are the admins tough ****" They seem to calm down. Like all of us, they are human and tend to get pissed off. Either way... Have fun play the game, and remember **** happens.