Generation Ranking

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Omicron
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Generation Ranking

Post by Omicron »

I was talking to Blart today and he mentioned the idea that there are gens 1-15 and that everyone should start at gen 15 and have to "diablorize" players instead of capping them to gain 1 gen. So, you can choose to decap someone to gain 1 status or you can choose to diablorize someone to gain 1 gen. With each gen increase skills or hits or damage output or attacks could increase depending on what gen you are. This would give players something else to work on besides just status, they would have a choice to make. It would also be good for inter clan ranking as players would actually "earn" their ranking within the clan instead of an arbitrary ranking system decided by the justicar or whoever...just an idea i am relaying for Blart.

thanks for your time,

O
Xodaru
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Xodaru »

I've seen the diab system in many of the VW clone muds, and it was something I very much enjoyed. I understand that this mud ISN'T the clones for a reason, and that may have a direct correlation to its current existence, but i always felt this was something that added a lot of fun.

I think that it offers:
-A system that can allow for more ways to introduce changes to stats / clandisc / whatever future changes may come as a reward.

Things such as what has been proposed in other threads (I am very ignorant as to what has actually been implemented already or is being worked on, I only recently started lurking the forums) such as increases to stat caps, changes to disciplines (perhaps certain generation unlocks a power to your disciplines?).

-Depending on if/how it would reflect onto the league, it could become a low risk form of pk (if league only displayed your generation for example, there wouldn't necessarily be permanent negative ramifications for fighting over gen - for those who HATE hurting their record *cough*) and therefore...

-Could potentially promote even more pk in a relatively low risk format.

But that is dependent upon what someone feels is "low risk." Even if it didn't strongly reflect on the league, losing access to an important stat bonus / clandisc buff / WHATEVER may be very high risk after all!



Anyways, there are a lot of directions this could take, obviously. I guess my point is, I've seen similar things before, and I really liked them.
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Damerion »

+1 I love diab, we already have it with caine when we do nod woudl be fun to go afte rplayers
kurtap
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by kurtap »

i always love new content but diablorize makes me grumble. i don't want it.
blart
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by blart »

I personally think its a great idea because it would not only get players into another aspect of the game but we are vampires... It is in our nature to diab other vampires to become the best along with status.
Damerion
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Damerion »

Lets keep this convo going, maybe some of the benefits from higher gen is we get more bp than 100, or maybe a extra clandisc or two maybe.
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by kurtap »

More blood! Brilliant.
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Damerion »

come now kurtap why don't you like the idea of more pk and such
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Damerion »

Ok, we haven't really flushed this out as Helmut has pointed out,

First there are a lot of cons that go into this

Con:
1. Smaller players are going to be big targets to start with, lets be honest, myself blart kurtap etc we aren't goin to target people our own size to start with, its insane to think that we would. We will hit the small ones especially when we are ranked 15-8 status will be plenty in that bracket and we won't have to look to each other yet.
2. It might bog down head movement for a bit, why would people pk doubly as hard when they can gain equal bonuses just for status it woudl bog down sooner or later just like other status movement.
3. Rewards would have to be worth the risk and we already are at that point where it would need major balancing to go along with what we already.

Pro:
1. It would give a lot of players a lot more chances to pk and have fun, would expand the types of pk and the bonuses we could get.
2. It might bring people back or even more people in thinking that the mud isn't as plain as our reputation is rumored to be.
3. As i've said before more things to work towards would keep more people interested

Now Here is my idea, instead of having gen 15-2 or whatever we limit it to 12-3 or 12-2 would be more likely. Every gen you go up your blood points maximum bp would go up by 10, at the end of the cycle you would have 200 blood points. You could also take some of the age bonuses that are tied to status now instead of age and tie them to the generational bonuses since that would make some sense. I also think that even besides that a few other bonuses should be given to us and that is a extra clandisc at generation 6 and then the final generation so instead of having one extra clandisc from nod we have teh ability of having 3 (that part might just need to be taken out due to balance issues).

I do think that just as when a vampire bites a mortal into clan the vampire who diabs the other should be weakened for a tick or so as there body adjusts to the new amount of power that is being absorbed.

Any thoughts or ideas to add to or subtract would be helpful and i'm sure teh admins team would enjoy them
Xodaru
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Xodaru »

Damerion wrote: Con:
1. Smaller players are going to be big targets to start with, lets be honest, myself blart kurtap etc we aren't goin to target people our own size to start with, its insane to think that we would. We will hit the small ones especially when we are ranked 15-8 status will be plenty in that bracket and we won't have to look to each other yet.
Sure this could 'suck' at first, but the only thing to be lost will be exp at that point. Who would carry around much exp when they see a beast after them for their generation? I feel like the game would just get SUPER PK HEAVY for a short time (which is fun to me, honestly), and it'd even out relatively quickly.
Damerion wrote: Con
2. It might bog down head movement for a bit, why would people pk doubly as hard when they can gain equal bonuses just for status it woudl bog down sooner or later just like other status movement.
I don't think it really matters if status movment is bogged down for a bit, pk is pk. You get the same feeling, you do the same things no matter what you're pking towards. As for your second point here, I think this is why the bonuses from bg should be distinctly different from what status offers; they both should have their own values.
Damerion wrote: Con
3. Rewards would have to be worth the risk and we already are at that point where it would need major balancing to go along with what we already.
I definitely agree with you here, there's no doubt that it would take some work to implement effectively. However, I do think that this is a good way to implement some of the ideas being thrown around the forums though.
Damerion wrote: Pro
1. It would give a lot of players a lot more chances to pk and have fun, would expand the types of pk and the bonuses we could get.
I agree and already stated this. Not much else to say here
Damerion wrote: Pro
2. It might bring people back or even more people in thinking that the mud isn't as plain as our reputation is rumored to be.
I can attest to this rumor. I've tried to get some friends to come back and that's what they've said about the mud. Whether or not it's true is simply a matter of opinion, but perhaps some layering of goals like this might bring more to the table for such players.
Damerion wrote: Pro
3. As i've said before more things to work towards would keep more people interested

Now Here is my idea, instead of having gen 15-2 or whatever we limit it to 12-3 or 12-2 would be more likely. Every gen you go up your blood points maximum bp would go up by 10, at the end of the cycle you would have 200 blood points. You could also take some of the age bonuses that are tied to status now instead of age and tie them to the generational bonuses since that would make some sense. I also think that even besides that a few other bonuses should be given to us and that is a extra clandisc at generation 6 and then the final generation so instead of having one extra clandisc from nod we have teh ability of having 3 (that part might just need to be taken out due to balance issues).

I do think that just as when a vampire bites a mortal into clan the vampire who diabs the other should be weakened for a tick or so as there body adjusts to the new amount of power that is being absorbed.
I like the idea of more blood points per gen, maybe a slight bonus to regen as well to compile on with other regen bonuses (I honestly don't know how this is at high end play, so that might be a horrible idea, but I'm just throwing some out there.)

I'm not too familiar with what bonuses in specific you're talking about regarding age and status, so I can't really comment on those.

More powers are more fun, but if that isn't an option (or at least not that many), perhaps a low gen bonus to all the clandiscs, some sort of buffed power that isn't currently implemented? Obviously if this was considered, we'd have to break down each clandisc and decide what kind of power would be valuable enough to come at like gen 4 or whatever. There are pros and cons alone to that sort of idea - including the amount of work and blancing for each individual power, but I think something like that could be really cool, mastering your clandisces!

The debuff to players after diablerize could be interesting, and also something new. Maybe we could implement a lag of sorts to the vampire for a few ticks after the diab? Staggering around high on vitae or something of that nature. :P



I really like these ideas, let's get some opinions from people other than Dam and myself in here! I don't care if it's you saying it's complete rubbish, just give us some feedback with reasoning! =)
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Damerion »

nod nod, I really like teh idea of staggering around high, perhaps your speech could be garbled and you wouldn't be able to recall almost a drunk effect would be really imersive.

Most of the age bonuses like high level cel and stuff I believe fell into the status bonus category I believe atleast.
Omicron
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Omicron »

kurtap wrote:i always love new content but diablorize makes me grumble. i don't want it.
K you crack me up. Why does it make you grumble?
Omicron
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Omicron »

I also agree with Damerion and Xodaru...those are all great ideas to me.

I think 15 gens is a good # as it leaves plenty of room to go up and offer us new or current powers at every gen level. For instance, 15 is the beginning, 14 is a bonus to celerity, 13 is a bonus to fortitude, 12 is a bonus to potence.

My point is we could get a bonus to a discipline every level of the range from 15 to 3 so as to leave room for Helmut and Joker and still have room for other bonuses or bigger bonuses to already bonused disciplines.

That is my opinion,

O
Omicron
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Omicron »

What I am curious about is what the admin think of this idea. If they are interested or if they want us to shut up.....:D

O
Xodaru
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Xodaru »

Each generation granting a bonus to a specific discipline would be interesting, and it would create some potential variation between each player. If I didn't pick X discipline, then Y generation isn't necessarily a milestone for me, but my clannie who has X might be drooling over the Y generation. Interesting indeed!
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Damerion »

Xodaru wrote:Each generation granting a bonus to a specific discipline would be interesting, and it would create some potential variation between each player. If I didn't pick X discipline, then Y generation isn't necessarily a milestone for me, but my clannie who has X might be drooling over the Y generation. Interesting indeed!

As fun as it is I still dont' think that that many gens would be a good idea especially if we incorperate blood gain into the equation we would be jumping from 100-230 or something like that all we really need is 10 for 100 blood.

IDK about the discpline idea it would be interesting but since almost all of us are cookie cutters of one another, drop obten soon as questing is done pick up mortis go at it with cel fort pot and auspex...just is a odd setup i guess idk
Sonja
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Sonja »

If this were implemented, to avoid small players getting hit by big players for months on end, I think it would be important that 'gen points' were allotted before the concept went live, ie: fighters-advents start at gen 13, champ-warrior start at gen 11, etc.

I like that this would remove pk restrictions, where for example a hero could hunt me (a conqueror) with something to gain, rather than wasting status by upcapping.

While I understand we have talented coders on staff and that our code is much different now, I offer a snippet written by Kaine from a the Embrace the Darkness clone. http://www.mudmagic.com/codes/download/ ... lerize.txt

I think it's also important to recognize that while we as players offer these ideas, there is a huge mindset of keeping all mud content to it's original intentions and therefor there is not a lot of room for changes like this. I see no disadvantages to adding this feature to the mud and welcome it. Fingers are crossed!
daitja
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by daitja »

It's a popular concept that we've discussed in the past, among ourselves and with players. I don't think there's any reason why something like this wouldn't be feasible for Classic.

Personally, my main concern is that it would be redundant with status. Given my understanding of the suggestions, it seems like a complete parallel - hunt/arena someone with a higher status/gen, and eventually decap/diablerize them or not. I'm all for extending gameplay, but I'd prefer to add more variation with the extension.

I do like the idea of a larger blood pool. Someone mentioned the potential for tiered discipline bonuses a couple months ago, and that sounded interesting. Maybe every 2-3 generations, players could gain the ability to "enhance" an additional discipline of their choice, increasing their power or unlocking new abilities. This would add a new layer of customization: at the lowest possible gen, a player could maybe only enhance 4 of 5(6) disciplines, requiring them to make further decisions based on play-style.

What I'd really like to see are more procedural ideas about how to make this thing different than typical pk. If we're doing 12-2, there's significantly less breathing room than with status, so I think it should be HARD to diablerize. Off the top of my head, maybe it could be a 10-second process that's broadcast to the entire mud ("Info -> Player A has begun to sap Player B's generation!"), is interruptable by combat (so a clannie or ally could prevent it from finishing), the victim is transported to the executioner as if capped and the aggressor is set to 30% health and completely incapacitated and summonable for 90 seconds, unable to enter any combat/movement/channel commands. If you don't have anyone to protect you or you're not careful about your surroundings, you'll be taking a serious risk of being capped or diablerized right back. And to make things even more interesting, perhaps each player could only use the command once per day - you'd better be damn sure you're able to pull it off and hold onto it, otherwise you lose your chance until tomorrow.

One more concern that I haven't seen addressed in this thread is how it would affect the current implementation of clan generation. I believe our model is a sound one - Justicars choose their own requirements for ranks within their clans. Maybe we could slightly extend the Justicar/prince/sire model, and have the clan-based generational bonuses (vclan and such) rely on that instead of generation.
Xodaru
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Xodaru »

I personally REALLY like this idea for diablerize being a much bigger deal than it has been presented in other games. Promotes clan (and others) involvement for some potentially nasty encounters! My initial reaction to that idea was something along the lines of, “Oh no!” Out of fear, and perhaps desire, for the possible shenanigans rather than distaste.

Tier clandiscs such that each one can be upgrade a maximum of three times. Leave everything we have currently alone and use it as a baseline. (don't want to totally disrupt the game play and balance of what is already live). All activated masteries require high blood cost to activate (think 100+ if our blood pools are increasing), leaving the vampire susceptible to attacks.

I haven't entirely fleshed out an idea for how to make the tiering of disciplines accessible and balanced. An amount of base points when you are first bit that simply allow the vampire to choose their initial 5 disciplines (or perhaps pick less and choose to buff up the few that they choose? ...I don't know if it'd be worth over complicating this even further). As the kindred climbs the blood generation ladder, they obtain more points to invest into the disciplines they chose. Perhaps one point to gain the first tier, two for the second, three for the third. Each subsequent tier costing more would limit how many disciplines one could “master.” I'm also trying to incorporate a risk vs reward idea regarding the masteries. Powerful abilities need to have some drawback, so there are potential negative consequences tied to each. If this is deemed unnecessary or generally un-fun, it can of course be scrapped..

Damerion and I had some pretty in depth conversations about possible discipline powers and decided to come up with a (obviously tentative) list of potential powers for each clandisc. We took into account what the most popular disciplines were as of present and which could use some higher representation. Don't want to make a bad *** discipline right out imbalanced.

**DISCLAIMER**
I understand that this mud does not want to depart from its roots too much. These suggestions are intended to spark discussion and thought upon possibilities of implementation.
*********************************************************

Most of the names I have here are not original at all. I'll admit I shamelessly went to a wiki for ideas for the sake of suggestions! However, I think a lot of these could be really fun.

Celerity:
Current: increases number of attacks, dodge percent, parry percent

Low Tier abilities: Couldn't decide on a single ability for low tier; including all that were discussed for further contemplation.

Flawless Parry: Always strike as if you were hidden: increased concealment from other hiding players is negated due to fast reflexes

Stutter Step: Activated ability. Sacrifice offensive bonus of celerity for more dodges and parries. Lasts until cancelled

Tier 1:
Tier 2:Projectile: Throw objects with speed of celerity. Throw an item in your inventory up to 3 rooms away (spy range) to strike your opponent. Damage and cooldown of ability potentially affected by weight of object thrown(just a unique way to add to this power)?
Tier 3:Zephyr: Move so fast you defy gravity: A dual ability with both an offensive and defensive application. Must designate a direction. Chance to fail.
1. Can be used as a guaranteed flee through curse. And up to three rooms away from an opponent.
2. After using the designate <name> command, the kindred is fixated upon a foe. They may then Zephyr up to three rooms away. If their designated target is in one of these rooms, the player incapacitates their foe, doing significant damage and inflicting a stun (similar to punch), leaving the kindred fatigued (lag similar to punch).
Upon failure, the kindred's legs both break.


Potence:
Currently acts as a damage modifier. Honestly am not fully aware of the inner workings of how it affects the player.

The Forger's Hammer: The kindred smashes their opponent with their weapon, causing aggravated damage (for a few ticks following, a slight lag is applied to regenerate).
Shockwave: The Kindred slams their fists into the ground, creating a shockwave, causing moderate damage and has a chance to knock the opponent a room away. Usable in combat. Chance to fail, you are caught off guard by your own strength. You take damage yourself and causing your arms to break.

Potence has been a difficult discipline to formulate ideas for abilities or concepts to. Input for this discipline in particular would be greatly appreciated. It has generally served as a passive discipline. Perhaps it could serve as a passive damroll bonus until the final tier upon which you get shockwave or something. Either way, I really like the shockwave idea!


Fortitude:
Currently acts as a resistance buff, causing things to do less damage.

Tier 1: Hardened Skin: Passive buff to AC or some sort. Simply enhance what fortitude already does.
Tier 2:Resilient Minds: Your mind sheds derangements and animalistic quirks while becoming resistant to mind-altering powers. The vampire gains a passive resistance to other vampire disciplines. X % chance to resist a kindred's discipline ability. I personally believe that it wouldn't be fair to certain powers for it to create a flat % change in resistance, so this power may have to take each power into consideration for different effectiveness rates. Similar to shield in reference to scry and readaura, but to multiple offensive powers and command / evil eye in particular.
Tier 3:Resilient Vitae: Activated ability, for the following X ticks, your regenerate amount is increased by 1.5x Chance to fail, causing you to regenerate at only 75% the normal rate.


Mortis:
Current: Blight, Blackdeath, masque of death

Tier 1: increase blight percentage, potentially give higher rate of cutting things off rather than just breaking
Tier 2: increase the damage output of blackdeath, but also increase backfire rate. Risk reward involved with buffing this power
Tier 3:Trace of Life: Calling upon the darkest teachings of Mortis, the kindred attempts to reanimate himself. The player has a chance to un-mort. Long cooldown ability (multiple mud days?) that has a respectably high fail rate. Low lag upon activation – reanimate with low health (5-10%?) Just enough to escape the grasp of a foe. Upon failure, player is fully torsoed.


Protean:
Currently has claws, change, blood of the wolf, and flight of the bat.

Tier 1: Thrill of the Hunt: Reduces lag on hunt. Useful for moving quickly!
Tier 2: Shape mastery: reduce the blood cost of blood of the wolf from 10 to 5 and flight of the bat from 15 to 8.
Tier 3: Unchain the Beast: Reduce sun damage. Promotes players to actually utilize high beast builds. Chance to fail if the vampire drops below a certain blood threshold (45% blood? Not sure if you can work with percentages with blood but if blood pools grow, would need to affect higher pooled players proportionately)


Serpentis:
Currently has darkheart, serpent, tongue, and breath.

Tier 1: Noxious Gas: Breath of the basilisk ability is buffed.
Tier 2: Gorgon: Allows the vampire to adopt serpentine fangs without assuming the full form of a serpent. Fangs now have a chance to apply poison.
Tier 3: Medusa's Gaze: Turn onlookers to stone with your gaze. Applies a lag to target. Chance to fail, the lag is applied to you instead of your target.


Obfuscate:
Currently has mask, shield and cloak

I am going to be completely honest, I believe that obfuscate is extremely potent in its current form. I don't believe the baseline of shield should not be as powerful as it is as default. Perhaps this is a chance to scale back its effectiveness and allow players to choose to buff it with a tier. This is something I would love to have feedback from others on.
Tier 1: Mastery of the Shadows: The potence of shield is buffed to its current level
Tier 2: Conceal: Cause player to appear as if they do not have any shield with the scry or look command.
Tier 3:Snare Shadow: The user snares the shadow of his victim, chance of flee is down by 50% and move is depleted by 1k a room for 30 seconds. Chance to fail, your own chance to flee is reduced by 25% and your move is reduced by 70%


Auspex:
Currently has tuesight, scry, and readaura.

Tier 1: Clairvoyance: Allows the vampire to see the shadowplane (without obtenebration) and allows exit to give room names at night.
Tier 2: Aura Perception: Allows scry to penetrate shield more easily.
Tier 3: Precognition: Vampire can predict future events. Punch will not work against the vampire until they leave their current room. Chance to fail: The vampire is automatically stunned as if punched and their eyes burn out.


Obtenebration:
Currently has shadowplane, nightsight, and shadowsight.

Tier 1: Inner Darkness: Damage buff while in shadow plan (makes using / getting shadow yank more potent)
Tier 2: Shadow twin: Create a clone of yourself in the shadow plane. There is a chance that players will scry your clone instead of you.
Tier 3:Shadow yank: Pull target player into the shadow plane for X ticks. Chance to fail, you are pulled out of the shadow and are ravaged by the plane, taking 15% damage


Dominate:
Currently has Evileye, command, and shield
Dominate was another discipline that I had trouble coming up with new abilities for. Would love some suggestions and thoughts.

Tier 1:
Tier 2:
Tier 3: Mental Maze: Chance for target to move in a different direction than they input for next x moves.


I understand that it is unrealistic for me to hope for many of these to end up in the game, especially in their current form. I just wanted to come up with some legitimate ideas of how tiering could look like. This is what Damerion and I came up with on our first run through of ideas for disciplines. Would love feedback on this, even if you absolutely hate it.
Last edited by Xodaru on Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Damerion
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Damerion »

It was sa lot of work and took a day and some change to really think and try to develop a bit but it was worth it imo, and we hope you enjoy some of the ideas
UnTeR
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by UnTeR »

Xodaru you are extremely whiny :P
I think that the drawbacks for the active abilities are a little severe.
People want powers so that they work. if everyone is too afraid to use the powers, then there is no point in having them. if the drawback of a fail is breaking both arms, when the possibility of fleeing while cursed is incredibly low as it is, no point in even bothering to use it :P
Xodaru
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Xodaru »

Haha, I guess that's a fair point. I thought it might be interesting to have a risk tied to very powerful abilities. If there's no risk, then I think they should be scaled back from their suggested form.
UnTeR
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by UnTeR »

Not to say that the powers need to be as overpowered as bd is, because then obviously a drawback is required. I think the point lies within creating abilities that spice up game play, but dont=win instantly if they succeed.

Yeah, if you werent aware of how unter feels about bd, now ya know :P
UnTeR
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by UnTeR »

Also, while it would be undeniably cool to have more powers, I think currently the focus should be on making more high level eq runs/xp areas for those above 20k. perhaps runs/xp areas with reqs in 2k increments: 20k, 22, 24, and maybe one for 25k. This will probably pique interest of lots of older players that have absolutely nothing left to do. More eq with unique powers would be nice too.
Xodaru
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Xodaru »

I think some people have been working on getting some areas approved or something. At least I know Damer has been. I agree, that is also something important to be worked on, but this idea has actually sparked discussion here. A zone is a zone. It can simply be worked on by someone and submitted for approval / implemented; I feel that something like this requires input from others.

But if that's a concern that requires further investigation, perhaps it deserves its own thread. *cough* :)
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Damerion »

Its harder than most of you think to get areas approved etc. but thats not this topic :P,

I think all things need a fail when we are talking about that powerful, and some of those amazing things would just make me laugh my *** off haha
Xodaru
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Xodaru »

I'd love to see corpses explode into a full torso >: )
kurtap
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by kurtap »

currently bd is pretty damn balanced. backfire is a real *****. if you disagree then you probably don't pk enough. i think rather than tiering disciplines, increasing blood points is a big enough bonus for generation.

now. if gen 2 were made available for players things might change. would another discipline be available? word on the street a few months ago was that brand new disciplines were being considered. no idea if this is factual however, as there is an awful lot of disinformation floating around this mud.
Galshik
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Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Galshik »

While I new to this mud and still getting my bearings one thing i have seemed to lack is players to pk with and anything to improve the chances of being able to fight someone I am down for.
Damerion
Elder
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:38 pm

Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Damerion »

Galshik wrote:While I new to this mud and still getting my bearings one thing i have seemed to lack is players to pk with and anything to improve the chances of being able to fight someone I am down for.

+1
Gabb
Neonate
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:58 pm
Clan: Tremere

Re: Generation Ranking

Post by Gabb »

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