Pwipe Discussion

ember · Post by **ember** » Sat May 09, 2009 12:29 pm

Hi everyone

Ths idea of Pwipe is getting thrown around again. I am not saying it will happen but lets bounce ideas about. It would hit me as I have big inactive players I like seeing on league too.

This would be my strategy for dealing with this.

Exp would get more difficult to get, so people wouldn't grow super fast, but everyone would be in same boat, so faster better PK.

Quest cards would have to be changed to exclude the really hard areas so that people could quest without being totally stcuk because they just got items from tiger lake or alaynia or cachtice etc. I would like to do this anyway, so that a card gets harder to complete the more times its used. Also harder the more questing you have done, so as you get harder it gets more challanging to quest.

We would have to add in more small/medium areas, maybe 5 - 10 of these to avoid area overload. Valynn and I could do this relatively easy.

Stances, spells, weapons would degrade if that weapon wasnt used for a while, this was an old idea that Dirge had in past. Stances would work differently so that in combat. One would work well against another, yet another stance would beat that so for example you would end up with table below.

Panther would be better against lion
lion would be better against grizzlie
grizzlie would be better against swallow
swallow would be better aginst panther.
etc.

This would take alot of working out, but would add an level in combat, where people would be continually switching stances in PvP. It wouldn't be biggest == win.

We would also look again at add and improving the clandiscs, we did some of that previously with Mortis and changes to serpentis etc.

This would be a big project, so what do you all think. Some of these would be done without a pwipe.

Mase · Post by **Mase** » Sat May 09, 2009 5:45 pm

ember wrote:Hi everyone

Ths idea of Pwipe is getting thrown around again. I am not saying it will happen but lets bounce ideas about. It would hit me as I have big inactive players I like seeing on league too.

I think it's fair to say that most of the active playerbase over the past two years has consisted of returning players - people who played the game at some point between 2001 and 2006, took an extended break, and came back to their previous character. It's been suggested that a pwipe would bring back old players; I'd propose the opposite. By clearing pfiles, you'd likely eliminate a significant percentage of inactive players who might return to the game but have no interested in the bashing/questing grind they've already experienced, and who are (by definition) under-represented in these discussions due to their inactivity. Not a condemnation of the idea, just something to keep in mind.

ember wrote:This would be my strategy for dealing with this.

Exp would get more difficult to get, so people wouldn't grow super fast, but everyone would be in same boat, so faster better PK.

There's been a trend in commercial online games over the past several years to actually lessen the "level" grind (or in this case, bashing/training) and achieve both player parity and continued interest through extended gameplay features that aren't necessarily related to level or size. Frankly, I don't think doubling the number of Pleiades one needs to slaughter to attain that next 1,000 across would benefit the game in any way - it would just make it that more difficult for casual players to compete with those who have the extra time and patience to do something that was boring in the first place.

People choose to play this mud in their free time because certain aspects of the game are fun. Bashing is not one of those aspects. To address the real issue rather than the symptoms, I would think the introduction of new gameplay concepts that are independent of character size would be important. Just making bashing more difficult doesn't change the scenario - players either bash, quest, or pk, and when they can't pk and have no need to quest, it's back to killing mobs. Likely, people would more often log off instead of engage in what's already a huge time-sink.

ember wrote:Quest cards would have to be changed to exclude the really hard areas so that people could quest without being totally stcuk because they just got items from tiger lake or alaynia or cachtice etc. I would like to do this anyway, so that a card gets harder to complete the more times its used. Also harder the more questing you have done, so as you get harder it gets more challanging to quest.

I think the initial concept is a good idea. Smaller players should sometimes need to make a strong effort to get an item, but they should rarely need a larger player's help. As a player grows, their card could expand the list of areas from which it selects items. But why on earth should cards become harder to complete the more times they're used?

ember wrote:We would have to add in more small/medium areas, maybe 5 - 10 of these to avoid area overload. Valynn and I could do this relatively easy.

I don't see why this would depend on a pwipe. In the difficult environment are dealing with these days, shouldn't Classic be prepared for an influx of new players anyway, in case by some good fortune it actually occurs?

ember wrote:Stances, spells, weapons would degrade if that weapon wasnt used for a while, this was an old idea that Dirge had in past. Stances would work differently so that in combat. One would work well against another, yet another stance would beat that so for example you would end up with table below.

Panther would be better against lion
lion would be better against grizzlie
grizzlie would be better against swallow
swallow would be better aginst panther.
etc.

This would take alot of working out, but would add an level in combat, where people would be continually switching stances in PvP. It wouldn't be biggest == win.

I understand the interest in adding another level to pvp beyond the current dynamics, but this seems asinine. Imagine playing a game of rock-paper-scissors that goes on for several minutes, and you're allowed to continuously change your hand. Instead of adding a layer of complexity, this would make pfights even more dependent on luck.

As an alternative, why not gear stances more towards different play-styles? Grizzlie might be damage-oriented, so someone with a high damroll might use that most often in pk, while falcon could be attack roll-oriented, so a player with a high hitroll would use that. Another player might be sacrificing hit/dam for AC, so they'd use swallow in pk to focus on their particular strength.

ember wrote:We would also look again at add and improving the clandiscs, we did some of that previously with Mortis and changes to serpentis etc.

This would be a big project, so what do you all think. Some of these would be done without a pwipe.

This mud has several unresolved bugs and gameplay problems. In my opinion, a pwipe would merely be an attempt to temporarily sweep those issues under the rug without any actual solutions, at the expense of many players who might have otherwise returned at some point. If you're interested in making productive changes, it might be helpful to ask any active or recently active players who still read these forums what they think needs to be addressed. Players don't always have a rational view of progressive changes in a game, but it could point you in the right direction.

Mordent · Post by **Mordent** » Sat May 09, 2009 6:33 pm

I'm all for updating/improving different aspects of the game in order to make things more exciting. There have been numerous posts in the past that I think were full of great ideas that could achieve this. Personally, I feel that the biggest area that needs to be addressed is in regards to the larger players. As is, once you're fully quested, have your talons and all the new gear and run Nod there's nothing to do but bash which is anything but exciting...especially when it takes a few million xp to train 5 across.

I'd also like to mention that, as one of those players that took a while off and returned with a new character, I'm very much against a pwipe. I've worked very hard at getting my character where he is and would seriously consider not playing classic anymore if I were forced to give up my character and start all over again.

Also, I have to say that I really don't like the idea of making bashing more difficult. As is, bashing is a very slow and grueling process and one of the reasons many of the larger players quit playing (since there's virtually no pk and no reason to quest). To make it more difficult to grow sounds as exciting as a routine trip to the doctor made better by finding out you're getting a really big shot in the ***.

ember · Post by **ember** » Sat May 09, 2009 6:50 pm

Thanks for comments

slowing down on bashing would be more to make it less interesting in getting 15k, maybe it would be better to be only 10 and work on pk style.

I like your comments on the stances, thats a really good way of doing that. I will try and get some time to look at ways of pushing that. We could also make new areas where you ahve a chance off gaining higher hr instead of dr. This would also need some work on combat generally. This is definately good possibilities. How about balancing this with chance to quest extra spell power. So a stance could be a highly mobile defence one where no chance of hitting, less chance of being hit and rely on spells to take person down.

Also the new shields will affect pk.

So what are some of the other areas that can be addressed.

I would love to add in other areas of play..... what would be good is a different kind of exp that is used in a different way to improve some other aspect of character, and not gained through bashing. Like a quest card that you complete by going to a room, though thats a naff way of doing it, but something different.

ember · Post by **ember** » Sat May 09, 2009 10:47 pm

How about this, this is partly from me and partly from Helmut.

Recoded vampire disc system

A exp card like quest card, but is completed by going to a room. This room gives disc exp that can be used to up vampire discs level, each level has different skills, some will be like current some will be new. Different levels of cards which can be bought, the cards would give more exp based on level. Cards would be bought with gold. high level cards would obviously contain rooms from harder areas.

So it would be different from just bashing.

Could do a similar system for spells and skills.

Thing is this is not adding lots of new stuff so its not a great idea. So anyone have ideas that would give more and different game play, to improve some currently non existant facit of characters.

Problem is so much is free/easy on code base, like all spells and skills. Everything is geared for PK, so much is trained by exp and exp is so easy to get. The rune stuff was a different way to do things. Everything thats not exp trained is quest trained and already done by so many players.

bair · Post by **bair** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:46 am

PLEASE read my posts at viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4778

making bashing harder is the last thing you should do. i dont understand how anyone thinks having only TWO players maxed out after 8 years of play is a good thing.

ember · Post by **ember** » Sun May 10, 2009 9:46 am

because I don't think anyone should ever max out

. When someone Maxs thats it, nothing to do but stake small people.

the problem is we need other things for players to do. New improvements. The last big one was runes, took months to develop and players completed it in a couple of weeks and said, okay what is there to do.

ember · Post by **ember** » Sun May 10, 2009 2:18 pm

Its should be noted that compared to when I first started playing exp is so readily available due to area and code changes. 300 years at 7k was big back then. That was years and years since mud started too. So noone bash bash bashed to get big. More RP and battling going on, not everyone bashing all the time.

bair · Post by **bair** » Sun May 10, 2009 3:25 pm

i played then too. im just telling you why people stop playing. whether or not you think people should max out is pretty much irrelevant. people quit because bashing has a HORRIFIC time spent/reward ratio. name one good game that doesnt have a max level. im sure that the increase in ease of gaining exp was a response to a falling pbase, which probably worked. dont blame people having nothing to do when they are maxed out on being maxed out, blame it on there not being other **** to do, which is what the post i linked you is full of. all i know for certain is that if i could remort i would play tons, i wouldnt have to dedicate my life to it, it wouldnt be repetitive, and i would actually gain something from it. im sure a lot of other people feel the same. the game would actually be fun, it would be just like a pwipe without having a pwipe. you would have 2k slayers trying to get big again real fast running from 10k advents. idk why i keep posting in these threads, ive posted a hundred helpful, unopposed ideas in the past 3 years and not one has been used (not that anyone else's have been used either).

Mordent · Post by **Mordent** » Sun May 10, 2009 4:19 pm

As it’s quite clear, at least one major aspect of the game that needs an overhaul is stuff for larger players to do. Doing a pwipe and/or making it more difficult to grow (in my opinion) isn’t the answer. I think implementing a new system that offers some replay value is key. Granted, runes were an awesome idea but lack in the replay department since once you get them unless you change gear you’re done with the challenge and it’s time to get back to bashing.

Why not implement some sort of battleground system (like capture the flag, decap the man with the ball, etc)? Battlegrounds are extremely popular in WoW which proves that if it were done correctly players would find it enjoyable. The general concept I was thinking of was an environment where when players enter everyone becomes the same size (say 10k across for example) and instead of competing for status have people compete for special quest points that can be used to quest temporary traits on their gear. For example, the ability to put detect hidden or curse on slayers, talons, or poons. Then, when the time limit expires the attribute is removed and it’s up to players to compete and collect points to add it again. Or perhaps make items like quester rings, lastina whips, or other special gear (a defiler skull with save vs spell on it) that isn’t obtainable in any normal run available to purchase with these special quest points. One important aspect would be that both winners and losers should be awarded for their efforts, with the losers getting only a fraction of what the winners receive…say 100 special quest points to the winners and 25 to the losers. Offering both sides a reward will keep people motivated to participate. After all, what’s the point in repeatedly spending 15-30 minutes at a time in a “battleground” if your team keeps losing and you receive absolutely nothing for your efforts?

Which brings me to another aspect of the game that I think needs to be addressed: PK. First, I think player mob kills and mob deaths should not be displayed on player's league. Everyone knows that players tend to look up their potential opponents on player’s league and compare the mks. Granted, these numbers aren’t always a reliable way to determine who will win but if the numbers were removed from display (but still counted towards the players overall ranking) it would add an element of mystery to the game and, I think, make players less likely to log-out when other players of the same status bracket come online since age would be the only thing left to semi-accurately guestimate someone else’s size.

Lastly, I also think that the reduction in a player’s score in player’s league due to a pk loss should be removed. The loss of a status point is enough. Considering the low playerbase and how precious a status point is…especially among the higher brackets, the loss of status is in my opinion more than enough of a penalty to pay for a pk loss. As the majority of players are obsessed with their ranking in player’s league, I believe that removing the pk-loss penalty and not displaying mob kills will help with lowering the number of players that avoid pk since the only penalty league-wise will be that their opponent moves up the rankings and they stay where they are.

The idea is to encourage pk, not place so many penalties on the loser that players are actually discouraged from taking place in pk-bouts they aren’t 100% sure they’ll win.

bair · Post by **bair** » Sun May 10, 2009 4:40 pm

battlegrounds with a battlegrounds store is a pretty damn good idea. all that players league **** is pretty inconsequential. i dont know anyone who cares about the players league. ur probably in that boat by yourself. you should lose points for getting capped in the players league...you would end up with rogues at the top of the league because they are so bad at pking they are 300/296. why would you be rewarded for being terrible? ive never heard of anyone refusing a fight because they dont want to lose a place in the league, thats would be pretty hilarious.

Mordent · Post by **Mordent** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:04 pm

bair wrote:all that players league **** is pretty inconsequential.

With as many times as players have logged out as soon as another player in their status bracket logs in, I find it difficult to see how this is inconsequential. There are plenty of players out there that wouldn't even consider making an attempt to pk someone with 40k more mob kills than them. My point is that if this information wasn't displayed on league then scenarios such as this would be a non-issue and the number of people logging-out to avoid pk could potentially reduce.

bair · Post by **bair** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:19 pm

lol they arent logging out because of your mkills. lastaris has 250000 mkills and he is 6k. age is a much better decider of whether you will win a fight or not. "oh **** he has 10k more mkills than me peace out." the number of people logging out for status has nothing to do with the ******* mkill counter on the players league, you are the only person who looks at that insignificant figure.

Mordent · Post by **Mordent** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:37 pm

bair wrote:you are the only person who looks at that insignificant figure.

I've spoken with quite a few active players that use the mkill counter to judge the size/skill of a player.

bair wrote:ur probably in that boat by yourself.

And, for the record, you really need to work on your people skills. Insulting people that are simply trying to offer suggestions to improve a game they've invested so much of their time in will only discourage other people (who might actually have a really good idea) from posting their ideas. So take a xanax or something and try offering some constructive criticism as opposed to telling people how incredibly stupid their ideas are. At least they care enough about the game to offer suggestions, however bad they may be.

bair · Post by **bair** » Sun May 10, 2009 6:46 pm

how is telling you i think ur the only person who looks at that number an insult? i dont need to work on my people skills, you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. im not trying to hurt your feelings, but your idea is insignificant and detracts from more important issues. the fact that you think im egotistical and i still dont give a **** about the players league should attest to this. hes talkin about changing the exp system and a pwipe, and ur talkin about the ******* players league, do you know how ridiculous that sounds? you also need to grow a **** if you think telling someone their stupid idea is stupid. you want stupid ideas implemented just so people dont get their feelings hurt? grow up.

ember · Post by **ember** » Sun May 10, 2009 7:05 pm

Some good ideas in there I will ahve to analyse some more. My plan is to take whatever comes out off these and post some sort of summary vote on what people like and dont. Just to address comment about nothing being done in last 3 years, I haven't been on in 3 years

MUhahaha I am back.

Actually for a while the main drivers off code changes were Dirge, Az and others. Only Helmut and I are left off old crowd active.

The penalties for losing PK won't change, they really are minor. If there was no score loss it would be abused, I know it sounds nuts, but these things were abused in the past by people determined to make top of league etc. Problem is people thing some problem with losing a fight, thats an attitude thing. There is no insta-fix for that.

As for daft suggestions, well sometimes someone makes a "daft" one that sparks something in aomsone else who adapts that idea and runs with it, and between the two/three/twelve people it becomes a good one.

remorting would be good, but it would have to open up some new level/class/adaption. I do like idea of having more things to improve that just stats, I would also think things would be more interesting if the max was lower. I don't haven't played WoW, it makes me motion sick. I did play diablo to death though, and never maxed, basically because it got too boring. I would end up looking for rare and special repop items.

Which was the idea of the items that only become something when revealed. Some of those are really good, i don't think anyone really did that much.

bair · Post by **bair** » Sun May 10, 2009 7:08 pm

the reveal items were a decent idea, but all of the items were bad AND timered, not a good combo. you should read the specifics on my remorting proposal, it shouldnt require much coding at all and it has all the adaptions explained to a T.

kurtap · Post by **kurtap** » Sun May 10, 2009 11:49 pm

i'm a fan of the remort idea, and i also think that upgrading clandisc's would add some more depth to the game. anything to mix things up and make bashing less vital. just my input.

forever and ever ago there was talk about a vampire hunters guild. i doubt that it is feasable with current pbase, but it would still be interesting.
--kurtap

ghnat · Post by **ghnat** » Mon May 11, 2009 8:14 am

ok there is no way i can respond to all these responses but.... at the risk of all your ire i suggest you go take a look at exulia and secma's mud. they have actually designed a very rich mud. i dont suggest we all move there i suggest go take a look and adopt some of the ideas they have. eg disciplines trained to lvl 10 each lvl has a certain power and costs rising number of qp, primal and xp. the max lvl of disciplines is ascertained by gen lvl(12 being 1st lvl vampire) and your gen is maxxed by your status lvl. so you cant have vagabond 3rd gen or some rot like that. the only problem with that is when you get a gen advantage on someone you will probably smash them as you have new disciplines to train.
point #2 if you dont want a max size then raise the maxx to 100k?
point #3 people avoid pk(at high status) because there is no one to cap to get back to the status they will lose. at low lvls they dont pk because they are either alts or power trippers who never want to feel like they lost a battle. believe me i have had many alts and been staked many times for trying to pk people at same status lvl. you all know the type... status 4 and wont cap anyone.
POINT #5 the mud is always better when admin are here. simple point i have seen it many times. the amount of time admin put in equates to very big affect in term of players.
point #6 ive been waiting for the new shields to come out for about 4 yrs
point #7 we all have real lives which at times take more time(same as yourselves) so we take extended breaks and come back refreshed and enjoy the game more.
alright i suggested arena war combat thing years ago. ive played muds with it and it rocks. i even semi enjoyed when i was at war with gangrel and malk back in the day, cause when else would i be fighting up to 8 people and getting to kill them(the whole getting staked and fed really does stop me from engaging in this). i also have seen like event weekends where you can cap anyone no rules and no one gains or loses status. have a prize for person who has capped most people, or award those who have won great battles or something. timered items are the best way to reward people- the timered items we have atm suck ****. they are either less powerful or only just equal to normal eq. so actually have say a 25 hit 25dam ring timered for 1k hrs. then people will turn up and participate for sure- because they risk nothing and get the opportunity to win something. not sure how but another mud i played logged stuff for these events so that they could even tell you how much damage or healing people did during events so that they had prizes for certain categories. eg best tank(most damage taken) best slugger(deals most damage) most deadly(decaps most or most death blows) best backup(most rescues) i know this may seem stacked in favor of large players but if you are creative you can make it so that only some categories favor large players. and having the teams picked by admin would ensure semblance of equality. i know we have had 'tie' combats before. so you mort and tie and then admin trans that person out. cant tie while in combat so their team mates can heal them quickly enough then that person is still in the game.
basically pwipe = in 6 yrs time people max and quit again. if you make it fun to play now it will always be fun.

Taipan · Post by **Taipan** » Mon May 11, 2009 9:51 am

I would be dead against a pwipe, and I'm only a medium sized player. I'm not sure I would bother starting again.

I quit playing DAoC and WoW because I hate grinding on mobs...it's boring. I like this game as PK is fun so increasing the bonus of PKing in some way would be good. It's true, people hate losing their heads, so make it that if you don't PK over time when there is opportunity to PK (i.e. the same status type while you're logged on) you lose skills, but the more you PK when there is opportunity, you gain skills. Maybe if you flee while engaged in pk, you get hit with a wimpy penalty, the same if you decline a challenge. Maybe I'm not skilled but hunting someone and they flip between jokers and clanhall is frustrating, so getting hit with a penalty when I challenge would be neat.

I am up for increasing the hits cap, and reducing the exp requirement for stats at higher levels. I don't even want to think about bashing for an hour for 5-10 across.

I like Ghnat's idea of clan war / arena wars - nothing gets the blood pumping like knowing a huge elder from an enemy clan is hunting you in a smaller environment

bair · Post by **bair** » Mon May 11, 2009 3:33 pm

also for the record, its insane that you cant buy questers rings for 2000 qp or whatever.

ember · Post by **ember** » Mon May 11, 2009 11:00 pm

Thanks for ideas Ghnat

There are very good reveal ones, maybe I didnt put enough good ones into cycle.

I was thinking that way of doing discs, but i was thinking from a now defunct mud, that I played it was run by Zip. I just wont go onto another VW, it annoyed me when things I did appeared on other muds, so I just wouldnt do the same to someone else. They put alot of hard work into developing ideas and code, i respect that

ghnat · Post by **ghnat** » Tue May 12, 2009 6:20 am

regarding the reveal items. myself and nommy cleared those bosses so many times(probably about 20 times each boss) and the only good thing that comes from reveal is vampire kiss 11 hit 11 dam weapon permanent and the emerald/that autoclaim questable anklet. nothing else is worth losing spell affects and runes which is in your normal eq.

Sonja · Post by **Sonja** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:43 pm

If there were a pwipe, I don't think I would return. I've played 2661 hours on Sonja. Hah that's kind of gross to think about. So out of principle, I'd be quite upset. Though if that's what got the game going again and that's what would make other people happy I'm a supporter of the idea. Some of the facts and ideas presented are valid.

But that is my biggest worry, is that nobody would come back.

bair · Post by **bair** » Wed May 20, 2009 1:54 am

the only way people would come back after a pwipe was if there were some DRASTIC changes to the game

Sami · Post by **Sami** » Wed May 20, 2009 2:30 am

After all my years of playing and having to recreate, I do not think that I would come back after a pwipe.. Ideas like Ghnat's are what I like to see. Fresh new and innovative. I had to literally play another mud and then come back to VW to see some action again but, I waited too long and too much had changed. mess loads of areas and mess loads of armor. I remember when svs meant jack and created eq was the best to have. Now it's a choice of defiler, wreath or circlet. I got to where I want to be and I have a choice if i want to give my head out or not. But, seriously implement new ideas and having more to chose with our exp is a good idea. I'd like to see us use what we have and Add to it; like more discipline action -- adding more to the disciplines. But a pwipe is not the answer. We all have worked too hard to get where we are at right now. I know that I have.

ghnat · Post by **ghnat** » Fri May 22, 2009 9:12 am

2 muds i used to play...... one had 1mill gold = 100qp
other had 1.5mill gold = 1 quest card of 100qp value
things to make gold usefull means people like myself actually work to collect gold. rather than me being decapped by a mob every 100 hrs or so and losing 5 million gold which i carry on me. or make it make say 5million gold = 1 unreavealed anklet. you reveal it and you may get a emerald(jackpot) and be able to give to clannies.
another mud i played has poker so you can bet as much as you want vs other players automated game you play.
social things implemented allow a lot of fringe players to enjoy their time, im not really one of them but i know lots of chatters who LOVE that stuff. old classic is the jukeboxes. put some modern tunes on them and put them in plain sight so people use them.

Zaheer · Post by **Zaheer** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:43 pm

any chance of sharing pbase and allowing players to move from one VW clone to another? that would be cool. You could (or admin coul) copy your player and stats to the other VW clone and vice verca.

I know rules and things are different on other muds but if you "travel to another land" you have the disadvantage until you work up your character to that land as well.

Post by **Helmut** » Fri May 22, 2009 1:56 pm

This wouldn't work, because our pfiles are stored diffent. There has been a lot of fixes and modifications that went into the code since the original release of vampire wars, and the data stored into the pfiles are different. I'm sure that some of the other muds would agree with me. If they have made changes to their code, then their pfiles would also be different.

Secma · Post by **Secma** » Sun May 24, 2009 12:40 am

ember wrote: I just wont go onto another VW, it annoyed me when things I did appeared on other muds, so I just wouldnt do the same to someone else. They put alot of hard work into developing ideas and code, i respect that

Just wanna say thanks Ember. And to Helmut, you are correct we would agree with you, there are too many things that you do in code that alters your pfile.

Zaheer I understand where you are coming from but I will tell you there is no way for a Classic character to translate into New Era or even Final Sunset though I think the two that are still "alive" are Classic and New Era

Post by **Helmut** » Sun May 24, 2009 4:12 am

Just wanna say thanks Ember. And to Helmut, you are correct we would agree with you, there are too many things that you do in code that alters your pfile.

Why would you say YOUR pfiles. Are you trying to say that no other mud actually alters the pfile during their programing?

bair · Post by **bair** » Sun May 24, 2009 5:11 pm

thats not what he was saying at all, he was agreeing with you. "your" was just used liberally

Mase · Post by **Mase** » Mon May 25, 2009 5:50 am

When in fact the issue probably doesn't involve the pfile at all. For those who aren't familiar with vw code and aren't satisfied with broad, dismissive generalizations, here's a quick explanation based on the available original vampire wars base (and the code of most diku/merc muds, because the concept is derived from diku and makes good sense) - all pfiles are made up of "keys" and "values": name (key) = "Mase" (value), max_hp (key) = 25000 (value), password (key) = "gullible" (value), etc. When you log on, the mud goes through your pfile and looks at each key. If it doesn't recognize a concept already used by the specific game (vw:classic, vw:new era, vw:final sunset, vw:**** cheese), it discards the value. Otherwise, it loads it into your live player. If the mud expects to find a key and value but DOESN'T, it shouldn't create a problem, because all expected keys and values should be initialized to "0" or "null" or whatever before your pfile is loaded.

Basically, if one game involves a special concept and another doesn't, the second will discard that particular "key" and "value" and continue as intended. If the developers of both games were interested in maintaining compatibility, all they would need to do is store your discarded keys/values and re-write them into your pfile when you saved. If the key is recognized but the value is incompatible with/outside the range of the current game (max max_hp for classic might be 25,000, but max_hp in the pfile is 34,000), the game could merely store two values (25,000 for the game's max_hp, 34,000 for the pfile's max_hp "value"). Easy to accomplish, and hardly a reason to blow off the suggestion.

On the other hand, you could be looking at serious balance problems. If you get 22k experience from a big mob on classic and 220k experience from a big mob elsewhere, obviously everyone would spend their time bashing on the other game. Similarly, if one game had access to twenty interesting clandiscs and another only had five, pk would probably be less prevalent on the second. I think the real reason why this would never happen is because it would require hundreds of development hours to correlate experience gain, armor class, hitroll, damroll, and quest points among participating muds. Same answer, different explanation.

If anyone wants to argue about the difficulty of bit-vector parsing or the like, I'd be happy to discuss any notion pertaining to the reading of pfiles. I'll likely maintain that it would take fewer than twenty-five hours of administrator discussion, coding, and implementation to resolve pfile issues.

(P.S. Notice my innocent endorsement of the new derivative Vampire Wars: **** Cheese)

Xorn · Post by **Xorn** » Mon May 25, 2009 9:35 pm

I think that the most obvious thing you can do to improve the game has to do with quests and was mentioned earlier in the thread - some kind of system where a new player such as myself doesn't work hard to hump 2.5 mil exp and make his card, then have to retrieve impossible items (such as cachtrice, tristram, etc... whatever). How is that logical?

ESPECIALLY since the mud is so devoid of players, it's really hard for newbies to quest, actually, its impossible short of making another quest card or asking someone for help. This to me is not a good gameplay experience and something should be done. I think this is a good step towards retaining new players, which is really the best way in my opinion to keep the mud populated.

tl;dr version: Make it so you only get quest items that are appropriate for your "level", they can still be challenging sure but don't give a low level player an impossible quest.

ghnat · Post by **ghnat** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:20 pm

back in the day people like myself used to make roughly 8 quest cards. keep completing the easy ones and leaving the hard ones with 1 item left on them. then usually at least 1 time per week you see someone big and you go can you kill a mob if i walk to it. and the big person says yeah no problem. people who make 1 or 2 quest cards are always gonna get screwed over. cause that means you need someone big on all the time

Raziel · Post by **Raziel** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:49 pm

ember wrote: I was thinking that way of doing discs, but i was thinking from a now defunct mud, that I played it was run by Zip. I just wont go onto another VW, it annoyed me when things I did appeared on other muds, so I just wouldnt do the same to someone else. They put alot of hard work into developing ideas and code, i respect that

I really appreciate that Ember, that was what first crossed my mind when I seen the initial posting on here about discipline levels being raised and such.

To Zaheer:
Transferring pfiles would be basically impossible. You would go from Classic, with a pick any type of discipline you want style to New Era's and Final Sunsets specific few disciplines for your starters. Gen wouldn't be the same between the two, the maximum about of disciplines wouldn't be the same. It would be quite chaotic really...The only thing we all share is AC/Size/Hit/Dam and a few other basics, other than that, no go. Sunset has a tier system, Classic has the Nod run. Not to mention gear.. [adminComment]Could you imagine the amount of crashes switching back and forth from incorrect vnums and vnums that don't exist on gear? Ugh..[/adminComment]

If you guys ever need a hand with code snippets or anything of the sort, let me know..And I will give the offer back to you guys. Even though we are different VW's, we still have that exact same thing in common. When we first started, we advertised, but after that I have stopped. So, I won't promote you guys or us or sunset or any other clone over the other. We have two good dedicated coders, so like I said, if you need a hand. Let me know. I know of a few bugs on your guys mud that I would love to see fixed but just never has been >_<.

As you all know me, Exulia.

Seth E. Bartlett
~Raziel

Ariak · Post by **Ariak** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:55 am

Here's my two cents.

1. The core fun factor of this game consists of two main parts: PK and Raiding zones. Bashing is not fun, it's hard work, often quite unnecessary, and if we had to do without it, so much better. We'd all like to just "get in the action already" without having to swim the entire ocean floor to reach 25k just to pit against the next guy. I'd rather that every one could hit a max of 10k within a week of playing, and focus on upgrading equipments or powers instead (converting XP to QP (or Discipline Points) maybe on something like a 50:1 ratio).

2. More isn't better. Quality must never be compromised by quantity. We don't have to build new zones when we can recreate and improve upon existing material. Adding or introducing a new zone once in a while could be a great treat, but doing this too often and it becomes overwhelming. Same thing goes for powers, equipments, and other changes. This said, we shouldn't be looking to expand anything when existing bugs haven't been addressed and solved (should there be any). Any major changes should take into account game balance. If you change something and break another, you're just going about it wrong, and you'll just be running around in circles.

3. If the goal of the pwipe was to take off super inactive players off rosters so we can have a clearer picture, i think it would be safe to dump any characters that has been inactive for over a great period of time, say 5years. And maybe impose a slight but accumulating penalty for "degradingly inactive players", say it takes them a few percent more to reach the next upgrade proportionate to the amount of time they've stayed inactive (and cap the penalty at, say, 50%).

4. Stances should act more like a fight bonus than a must. Some thing like e.g. more parry less attack, more attack less dodge, more dodge less block, more block less damage, more damage less parry, or combinations. And at the center, a balanced stance that incorporates all but would not be able to fully utilize the strength of other stances. Please don't make some thing that's a staple standard of the mud and turn it into rocket science.

If a pwipe CAN solve problems, i'm all for it. But if at the core of it all the system beats with a weak heart.....what's the point?

I write this with all due respect to everyone participating, and i sincerely hope to see our beloved mud rise once more.
Thank you for taking the time to read.

ghnat · Post by **ghnat** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:39 am

one of the best muds i ever played had no stances and it makes a huge difference (for the better) because then big player fights play out similar to small people fights. which anyone will agree are hugely fun. but the mobs are set up currently so you could never kill them without stances. i also like the muds where you can create your own stances. you get to make a stance and once gmed you can create a stronger stance. basically you get 5 points to put in on lvl 1 and that can be spread across hitroll damroll parry damage_resist. there is 5 lvls of stances and each higher lvl gives more points to add in. the good thing about this is you can make tanking stances, bashing stances or pk stances depending on what you like doing most.

Ariak · Post by **Ariak** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:39 am

I think Ghnat's idea of using point system for improving stances is good, btw.
Gives us more room for customizing how we want our characters to grow.

Personally, i detract from the idea of linear stock character building/fighting.
"Oh i have what he has, fully quested, same HR/DR/AC and disciplines, now it's just a matter of who's bigger and gets the lucky flee spam."

Additionally, maybe we could remove mobkills, mobdeaths, playerkills, and playerdeaths from the player's league. It's a good tool for statisticians, but it could dissuade some players from becoming active.

Also, maybe we could improve the player's league a bit by separating active from inactive players (those that haven't logged on in YEARS).

Mordent · Post by **Mordent** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:02 pm

Ariak wrote:Additionally, maybe we could remove mobkills, mobdeaths, playerkills, and playerdeaths from the player's league. It's a good tool for statisticians, but it could dissuade some players from becoming active.

Nah, it was determined earlier in the thread that I'm the only person that ever looks at player's league. Having these numbers available for people to see couldn't possibly persuade anyone not to play, log instead of pk, etc.

Taipan · Post by **Taipan** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:01 am

hehehe I look at them often.

ghnat · Post by **ghnat** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:48 am

i never look at league... but guys im now 500 mkills off being highest mkiller ever:) woot